
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 26 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1259



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TML Members as resources
Ship's Boat skill upgrade
My 3D work
Re: Balaclava/Samar Anniversary
Re: Traveller Software 
re: Mining the TML
Re: Mining the TML 
Fellow Traveller (was :RE: The Baron Population Bomb)
Typical PC vs Typical TMLer
RE: Re Self Destruct
Re: Battle Dress pressure toleration Was: Freezing in the Aleutians
RE: Mining the TML
Re: Official Request: Palm Traveller
Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet
RE: The Baron Population Bomb
How many Imperial barons?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:20:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: TML Members as resources

> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:44:00
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
> 
> At 01:42 AM 10/26/1999 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Well, as an Atheist and Archaeologist, I would guess that it's in Exodus
> 
> Exodus 20, to be precise. 

Interestingly, anyone with a smattering of Greek could guess one place to
find the Commandments.  'Deuteronomy' comes from words meaning 'second'
and 'law' because it's the second book (after Exodus) in which the
Commandments appear.  Interestingly, the two forms are slightly different,
though only in wording, not intent. 

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Ship's Boat skill upgrade

> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:45:34
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
> 
> I've often daydreamed about being a Shuttle pilot, and sending Craig email
> from orbit.. 'add Ship's Boat-1 to my character sheet!'

To which I would reply, "Launching and orbiting that puppy are mostly
poking buttons on the autopilot and watching the panel.  Land her and walk
away, we'll talk." :) 

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:48:49 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: My 3D work

Well, I'll jump into the fray...

Go to my website (http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/) and enter the
Ship Gallery - you can see two pictures that I've done. The deckplans for
the LF-78 are being redone, and the stats for both are being typed up
(although the L-2 stats won't be available till after the THUDDD entry
period).

I think I'm doing decent on modeling and texturing, but my composition
leaves a bit to be desired. I gotta work on starfields, nebulas, stars and
planets...

Many thanks to Lord DeGraff, Archduke of Traveller 3D Graphics, for his help
and support in teaching me this stuff...

Hopefully more to come soon (in the pipe: Atlantis class Gunboat and Silent
Thunder class Frigate), but I'm also redoing the whole website now that I've
got Dreamweaver, Fireworks, and Flash...

Comments are welcome...heck, even encouraged...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tg++(**) tc+ ru+ ge 3i+ jt- st au ls+ kk++ hi+ as+ va+ dr++  |
|       so+ zh+ vi+ da+                                              |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e++ h---- r+++ y++++                          |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:25:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Balaclava/Samar Anniversary

In mail you write:

>> Today is the anniversary of two battles of a small force resolutely
>> attacking a superior foe:  the 145th anniversary of the Charge of the
>> Light Brigade at Balaclava, and the 55th anniversary of the Battle off
>> Samar, during the Battles of Leyte Gulf.
>> 
> [snip]
>> A toast:  To fallen heroes.
>  
> Here, here.  But lest we forget those who remain behind:
>
> Rudyard Kipling, "The Last of the Light Brigade,"
<snip>

Also, while their action was heroic, it was futile. Because the orders
weren't clear, and when the commander asked "which guns?" the messenger
(may he burn in hell!) pointed and said "*Those* guns." He was wrong. 

This action is one of the main reasons why military academies have
courses on "How to Write An Order". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 03:05:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Software 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com> writes:
> 
> >No kidding.  I'm not a C coder in the least.  I do some Turbo Pascal, and
> >yeah, I got the Free Pascal Compiler for Linux, but I'm having problems
> >making it talk with Xwindows.  Graphics programming was *never* my strong
> >suite.
> 
> You know, ISTR that Rob Prior's Traveller software is written in a Pascal?
> Perhaps it could be ported to Linux if the GUI could be sorted?

Possiblemebbeperhaps.  I'd love to see the sourcecode.  If it's not *too* highly OOP, I might even take a stab at it myself...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 03:35:25 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: re: Mining the TML

At 02:01 PM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Rob Brady wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
>Notice, no level-0 skills. What are they? Are they something like this
>C++ or Graphical User Interface people keep talking about? Sorry, I have
>no time for that. I'm busy getting the sprite movement routines on the
>8 bit nintendo machine working.

This was very tongue in cheek. I got megatraveller around the same time 
Windows started to become popular. I still don't like either one.


>More Obtrav: How many points of Edu can you give someone with
>six weeks and Instructor skill?

You can't teach EDU for for some reason. You can only teach skills up to
one level below your instruction skill or the level of the skill you are
teaching. If Joe has:
Traveller-4
Instruction-3
AD&D-2
GURPS-1

Joe can teach up to Traveller-2 and AD&D-1. He can't teach GURPS (this is
CT, no level 0 skills) and Instruction cannot be taught. This is really a
side effect of the instruction skill which is really to be used to train
troops in say, using a new weapon.

- --
Tardy robber.. Order By Brat.. Tardy Bob ERR.. Retry bad Rob.. Retro by bard
Robert Brady                                        robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:03:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Mining the TML 

> >More Obtrav: How many points of Edu can you give someone with
> >six weeks and Instructor skill?
> 
> You can't teach EDU for for some reason. You can only teach skills up to
> one level below your instruction skill or the level of the skill you are
> teaching. If Joe has:
> Traveller-4
> Instruction-3
> AD&D-2
> GURPS-1
> 
> Joe can teach up to Traveller-2 and AD&D-1. He can't teach GURPS (this is
> CT, no level 0 skills) and Instruction cannot be taught. This is really a
> side effect of the instruction skill which is really to be used to train
> troops in say, using a new weapon.

Um, yes he *can* teach Instruction.  But if that's how he makes his money, he *won't* teach it.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:52:16 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Fellow Traveller (was :RE: The Baron Population Bomb)

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" 
> >Notice that "Socialism/Communism" Governments are not listed as
> >GovernmentTypes in the UWP? 
> 
> There are a couple of government types that would fill the
> Socialist/Communist role:

I think Doug is being a little PC here, in assuming that
Socialism/Communism equals Soviet/Chinese style Stalinism.  Remember, in
the TU, there's room for _everything_, somewhere.

I've added some more to his list:

Gov't 0: No government.  Local communities and collectives run things. 
Might have happened if the Paris Commune had survived, and been joined by
other Communes.  (Commune is French for city, by the way.  Well, more or
less.)  

> Gov't 1: Corporation.  If the Party is the company, and the Workers are
> all shareholders, then it's a Marxist dream come true!  Elect the
> Management from the rank and file.
> 
> Gov't 2: Participating Democracy.  Another utopian take on the idea.
> Everybody of a certain age is a member of the Party, and everybody votes.
> Heinlein's Starship Troopers comes to mind, with Party membership
> restricted to veterans.
> 
> Gov't 3: Self Perpetuating Oligarchy.  The People's republic of China
> after Mao would be a good example.. ruled by an inner circle of Party
> members, who don't need to answer to those they rule over.

Gov't 4: Might be multi-party, or may have rival factions in a single
party, or may allow non-party candidates.  Closest examples:  Nicaragua,
Paris Commune, the short-lived socialist state in Bavaria in about 1919 or
so, very early Soviet Union, with Left Socialist-Revolutionaries,
Anarchists and Mensheviks still hanging around.  Also:  the 1905 Petrograd
Soviet.  Could be quite likely if there are no outside threats hanging
around supporting attempts at counter-revolution.
  
Gov't 5: State apparatus functioning as a technocracy.

> Gov't 8 or 9:  Civil Service Bureaucracy and Impersonal Bureaucracy. 
> Both good "ground level views of the communist systems.  "The Party has
> determined that you are over your quota for air this quarter, comrades.
> Please adjust your breathing accordingly.  Spacebo."
> 
> Gov't A: Charismatic Dictator.  Josef Stalin, Mao, Fidel Castro..
> Communist regimes seem to end up being a haven for dictators.

Gov't B: Non-charismatic Dictator.  Brezhnev, Gorbachev, and the ones
between Stalin and Kruschev.  (Kruschev might qualify for Charismatic). 
Most of the Eastern European leaders. 

Gov't C: Charismatic Oligarchy.  The Party was the confidence of (most of)
the population.

> You could make a case for Gov't D: Religious Dictatorship.  Given some of
> the utterly bizarre assumptions made by Soviet scientists (esp. Lysenko)
> in accordance with Marxist theory, you could have fun with this one.

ROFL!  Yeah.  I've seen material produced by some of the madder "Socialist"
groups.  This one, and Gov't E, are definite possibilities!  There's plenty
of Leader cultism and dogmatism, that could well be assessed as religious
in character by outsiders, like the IISS.

> And of course Gov't F: Totalitarian Oligarchy.  The sons of the Party get
> the best, while the Workers slave away.
> 
> Socialism and Communism are economic theories.  Remember, the Soviet
> Union had an elected assembly.. there was just one party invited of
> course...

A one party outcome is not a necessary assumption.  It's even less likely
in a situation where the "Revolution" happened 500 years ago, and its
results are set in stone.

The other thing to consider is that by TL F, at least, labour productivity
is quite remarkable.  It might not make sense to produce things in a
capitalist manner at this point, and might make more sense for stuff like
basic food, housing and clothing to be distributed free.

As for the Imperial response to Socialism/Communism - well, of course it's
true that the Nobility and the Megacorps would take a dim view of anything
that threatens their power and property.  On the other hand, the Imperium
could well have absorbed socialist worlds that developed during the Long
Night, and chose to go with the Imperial flow.  The state-run enterprises
of such worlds would just look like normal Pocket Empire "megacorps", as
far as the outside universe was concerned.

I tend to treat Dinom/Lanth as something like a Socialist state.  I assume
that the FFW took the edge off its radicalism, that the original Ine Givar
types have pretty much been purged, but that the major mines are at least
still notionally state run.  It has suffered from outside attacks, and at
least a degree of economic blockade.  This, the rarity of zuchai crystal,
plus a certain amount of genuine incompetence, has resulted in the economic
crisis that has resulted.  The xenophobia has come from the state of siege
that has existed, plus a certain parochialism in its now conservatised
leadership (kind of like the Stalinised Soviet Union).

Other worlds in the Spinward Marches that deal with this kind of stuff are
Tanoose, where there is pressure both for and against nationalising the
property of the Vilisan overlords, and Porozlo, where there is a conflict
between planetary and extra-planetary business interests.  There could well
be a "none of the above" camp in that situation.

The tie-in for TNE would be a world, or PE, that nationalised its high-tech
assets after the collapse, either to support a TED, or to prevent one from
re-emerging.  Scenario:  the Assault on Tractor Factory Number One.  (It
can still work crystalliron.)

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:26:54 -0500
From: "Lyle Youngblood" <lyley@gte.net>
Subject: Typical PC vs Typical TMLer

>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:21:51 -0400
>From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
>Subject: Re: TML Members as resources
>
>Glenn Grant 585AB6     Artist/Writer 4 Terms
>Skills:  Art-5, Writing-5, Research-2, Admin-1, Music-1,
>First Aid-1, Anthropology-1
>
>Not exactly the typical PC type...
>
        I, on the other hand, DO look like a close to typical Traveller PC.
Scary
thought, that.

UPP 546AD5  (being generous, all can be argued to be one lower)
Age 40
1/2 term college (success in ROTC, but not overall)
5 terms Army, retired, rank O-1 (1st Lt.)
Skills: Fwd Obs-3, Liaison-2, Admin-2, Hvy Wpns(GL)-2, Tactics-2,
    Medic-1, Carousing-1, Streetwise-1, Dagger-1, Handgun-1,
    Gambling-1, Leader-1, J-o-T-1, Commo-0, Recon-0, Bayonet-0,
    Combat Rifleman-0, Instruction-0, Hvy Wpns(SAM)-0, Steward-0,
    FA Gunnery(Howitzer)-0, Hvy Weapons(Mortars)-0, Brawling-0,
(skills should be fairly accurate, under-estimating some, if anything, IMO)
                                                    Lyle

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:10:26 -0700
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Re Self Destruct

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of William F.
> Hostman
> Sent: Monday, 25 October 1999 11:49 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re Self Destruct
>
>
> >Craig Berry wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> So, could a Hydrogen/Oxygen fire described above do a similar thing to
> >> spaceship armour? Clearly it might cause crystaliron to recrystalise as
> >> mild steel (give or take the alloying) but how stable is superdense?
> >
> >No, again, the temperature and pressure achieved in a 1 atm H/O explosion
> >aren't high enough.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >I know it might take a little more time but - considering that we are
> >talking about an artificial environment here - is it strictly
> necessary that,
> >at the time of the explosion, the internal atmospheric pressure be only
> >one atmosphere?
> >
> Faster way to pump up the pressure: open all interal valves and doors (but
> not the Airlocks, inner nor outer), and vent all the plasma from
> the drives
> into the atmosphere...you will get a heat flash, and a pressure wave,
> probably not enough to do more than blow down partitions, but you
> will melt
> the engineering wiring and consoles, for the most part. And the chairs...
> And, assuming you've got the h2 pumped up along with the right o2
> levels, a
> preife flash fire to preheat the rest of the ship...
>
> Then, repeat venting by running all remaining fuel through the
> JDrivve, and
> venting internally, assuming it was in another compartment, or at
> least not
> in the venting patern.
>
> William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
> interface!"
> Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
> 533
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis
> http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
> ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
> ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
> pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
>
>
Or since the jump drive reactor is supposed to be fast burn anyway, light
this baby up and drop the containment field instead of charging the jump
grid. This may be enough to blow the ship apart.

Antony

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 02:41:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Battle Dress pressure toleration Was: Freezing in the Aleutians

In mail you write:

> From:                   "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
> Date sent:              Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:14:55 +0200
>
>> FWIW, The MegaTraveller Journal #1 lists Battle Dresses as being able to
>> withstand pressures up to 600-1000 ATM (depending on the specific model),
>> which does seem kind of reasonable to me.
>
> Uhmm, thats 6,000 to 10,000 meters. IIRC thats way deeper than most of the
> world's oceans. I'd suggest a range more along the lines of 60 to 100 atm
> (which gives 600 to 1,000 meters at T-norm).

Challenger Deep in the Mariannas Trench is IIRC the deepest spot at
around 36,000 feet. That's almost *11* km.

Sure the abysal plains are "only" 3-5000 feet (~1-1.5 km), but they are
merely "average" depth.
  
>> One of my players scuba-dives, and he's told me a lot about diving. In 
> their
>> normal suits, they often dive to 60-70 meters (IIRC), which means 7-8 ATM.
>> That's pretty safe, but greater depths are possible in just an ordinary 
> wet-suit,
>> if caution is exercised.
>
> From memory the maximum depth for diving is around 200 meters???

Depends on what *type* of diving you are talking about. And whether you
are talking about suits where the diver is at ambient pressure or where
he is at "normal" pressure.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:21:30 +0100
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Mining the TML

Walter Smith wrote:
> Rob Brady wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> Notice, no level-0 skills. What are they? Are they something
> like this C++ or Graphical User Interface people keep talking
> about? Sorry, I have no time for that. I'm busy getting the
> sprite movement routines on the 8 bit nintendo machine working.
> >>>>>>>>>
> level-0 skills are the nice gamemaster's way of letting the
> more  sedentary characters shoot guns like the real adventurers
> in the party.
> <weg>
>
> Level-0 implies sufficient basic familiarity to allow the
> person to use the skill under normal, non-stressful conditions.
> The most common skill level zero skills in canon adventures are
> a weapon skill (one per person) and Vacc suit skill. Vacc-0
> would allow you to put on a vacc suit safely in a spacious
> airlock and walk carefully across the surface of an airless
> world without killing yourself. It wouldn't allow you to put on
> a vacc suit in the dark while atmosphere rushes out of a holed
> ship around you, except by luck.

In MT terms the skill level is a bonus to your task roll, and  in
situations where an unskilled character is permitted to attempt a
task the lack of skill results in the task  being  a  grade  more
difficult (equivalent to a penalty of -4).  So  a  level-0  skill
gives no bonus or  penalty  and  permits  task  attempts  in  all
relevant cases.

With other systems YMMV.  (Or should that be YKmMV?)



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:24:37 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Official Request: Palm Traveller

>>Timothy asked:
>>In the meantime, I've been thinking about going through the MT books to
>>collect all the tasks given.  But before I reinvent the wheel has anyone
>>done this and would like to share the work?


David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson:
>I'm sure I have a vague memory of seeing such a task list somewhere on the
'net.
>However, it's been a while, so you'd need to trawl thru the Webring
yourself
>(sorry!).

No need to apologize.  I'll get to it.  But it's going to have to wait.
Life's a bit hectic at present.  New term, students actually asking
questions!  I mean, what do they think this is...?  A library?


[Anybody happen to know the overlap between the INSPEC and Compendex
databases?]


[Or indeed, where on the web David might have seen the MT tasks?]

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:45:56 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet

At 06:08 25/10/1999 PDT, Will richards wrote:
>How about this...
>There are several systems in the Spiward marches that only have a number 
>designation.
>  Why don't we pettition Marc and Loren to have one of them admitted to the 
>Imperium and given the name Andy?

IMHO neither "Andy" nor "Keith" seem much of a name for a place (too short)
but how about the planet

			Andykeith
?

(Real world example being the South African towns of Harrysmith <sp> and
Ladysmith,
 named after Harry Smith and his wife.)

OTOH, "Andrew J. Keith" sounds like a good name for a ship - especially for
that
ex-navy BB that the scouts operate (if they don't operate one now, I'm sure
they
could be given one in the G:T timeline.)

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:54:31 +0100
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: The Baron Population Bomb

Terry Carlino wrote:
> Notice that "Socialism/Communism" Governments are not listed as
> Government Types in the UWP? These kinds of governments and the
> concept of nationalization of private industry is as much an
> antithesis of the 3I as it was to the U.S.

Two points:

1) The UWP system also covers non-3I worlds as well so even if  a
   government type was anithesis to the 3I  it  should  still  be
   covered.

2) Marc Miller wrote an explanation of government types  with  RL
   examples in  High Passage  magazine  (IIRC,  could  have  been
   follow-on Far Trader magazine).  One of  them  was  Socialism.
   Don't have it at work with me so I'll dig it out  tonight  and
   post the relevant bit tomorrow.

So then the question becomes: are there any government types  the
3I would not like and sufficiently as to cause 3I intervention?

I think that as long as the local world still pays its  share  of
Imperial taxes then it comes down to how it deals with the  local
noble and any megacorporations affected.  Hence  the  possibility
of political intregue.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:04:31 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: How many Imperial barons?

Jon Zeigler writes:
>Canon is pretty clear on how many there are of the highest ranks of the
>Imperial nobility -- one duke per subsector, a count for every two or three
>worlds, a marquis for every single important world.
>
>Meanwhile, the baronage is the main pool from which the upper ranks
>of Imperial bureaucracy are drawn. There must be a lot of barons, since
>the Imperium has a huge population to be administered.  How many?

You're assuming that a world with billions of inhabitants needs
significantly more high Imperial officials than a world with a few million.
Is that necessarily so? I'm not saying it isn't, but I don't see why it HAS
to be. And I can see one very good reason why it shouldn't: The Moot.
Imperial barons all have a seat in the Moot. Even 10,000 peers are unwieldy.
Millions don't bear thinking about (Unless you're George Lucas ;-).

>My gut feeling is that there is probably at least one baron per self-
>governing planet, no matter how unimportant

Agreed, although some peers have multiple titles, Norris being the prime
example. 

> -- and about one baron per 20-50 million people on a high-population
>world.

But that I don't think can be right. I'd say 2-3 barons per higher noble
would be about right. If you assume that every world with a population
level of 7+ has a higher noble, you get about 2,800 marquesses and above.
If you assume an average of 2.5 barons apiece, you get a figure of 7,000
barons, for a total of 9,800 peers. Even that is a lot, and it assumes
that the other kinds of nobles are not peers, which is quite iffy.

Actually, there's no real reason to assume that there HAS to be more barons
than marquesses. It's a natural assumption, but it doesn't HAVE to be. Maybe
there's only one noble per self-governing world; if the world isn't powerful
enough, it gets a baron; if it is, it gets a higher noble. That would give
you a Moot of maybe 6,000 members. If most higher nobles has a baronial
title in addition to his main title, the way Norris and Leonard of Aramis
has, there may be even fewer.

>Any insights?  And yes, this is going into a book for GT if possible.

In that case you must remember that G:T switched the count and the marquis.
In GT it's the count who is in charge of a single world and the marquis
who is in charge of a small cluster. I can't say I understand why that was
done (I know that in the European system of nobility a marquis ranks higher
than a count, but I don't see why that means the Imperium can't have things
the other way around any more than they need viscounts just because England
had them (in the English nobility vicounts rank between barons and earls
(counts)), but there it is. It's an infernal nuisance, and I note that BtC
didn't follow up upon it, so perhaps you can persuade Loren to quietly drop
it again, but unless you do, you'll have to keep it in mind.

William F. Hostman writes:
>Canon also states that titles (all the way through duke) can be awarded as
>rewards for service(s), in a manner not unlike british orders of nighthood.
>Also, children of a noble recieve courtesy titles, as well.

That's not necessarily the way courtesy titles work. In England, if a noble
holds several titles, his eldest son may hold the second most important as
a courtesy title, but the title actually belongs to the father. At least, I
don't _think_ the son sits in the House of Lords until the father dies. If
I'm wrong there, then the son is a peer.

>Based upon CT and MT Careers, it is likely that the following are true:

I'm sticking my neck out here, because odds are two to one that either Marc
or Loren wrote the essay about Imperial nobles, but whoever it was IMO made
a big mistake when he turned the noble ranks from the character generation
system into Imperial nobles. Book 3 plainly speaks of planetary nobility
(there are two more ranks above duke, prince and king, and kings are actual
rulers of worlds). When social status 11+ was turned into Imperial nobility,
a whole section of society, the local planetary nobles, was cut out of the
system. You go directly from the gentry of SS 10 to the Imperial nobility.
But the character generation rules remained the same. Do not, I implore you,
consider the dukes you get from the CGR equivalent to real Imperial dukes.
That way lies madness.

>2) The navy and Marines tend to get "Courtesy Titles", especially upon
>attaining high ranks in the service; according to the article in Library
>Data, whether or not they get a fief is questionable.

IMTU they get Imperial knighthoods that makes them the equivalent of a
planetary baron/marquis/count/duke. The next step up AFTER social status
15 may get them an Imperial barony. Considering how many Imperial military
men there are, I don't think there is room for a fraction of a percent of
them in the Moot...

>Canon doesn't specify the nature or size of fiefs.

The essay on nobles in _Imperial Encyclopedia_ do specify the size of the
typical fief. I agree with you that the actual income derived from the
fief is more significant than its size and I, too, use other kinds of
fiefs and estates than land.

>An office has a "See" in the same manner a bishop does; the see is that
>area under the administration of the holder of a particular office, or
>whatever tthe &^&*(& the noble does, he does for that area.

I have a similar concept although I call it a 'charge'. When a world joins
the Imperium, it surrenders some of its sovereignty to the Emperor. He
delegates that sovereignty to his nobles. That's what makes the Imperium
a feudal structure. A subsector duke, for instance, is charged with
collecting Imperial taxes of his worlds and with raising and maintaining
a colonial army and navy, rights that the worlds in his subsector has
surrendered to the Emperor and the Emperor has turned over to him. If his
is a border subsector, he may also be responsible for their foreign
relations, but more likely the Emperor has delegated that to another, the
sector duke perhaps, or an Imperial envoy.

>The See of the Emperor is the Imperium,

IMO the Emperor owns the whole kit and kaboodle (the surrendered sovereignty,
that is, not the real estate). He dosen't have a see/charge. He has it all.


Chris Peers writes:
>Let's also keep in mind the younger children who don't inherit the noble
>title but are of noble blood and heritage.  They would be a pool of high
>level people for the Emperor to draw on.

Actually, the essay that William refers to does state that to hold a high
office in the Imperium, you have to be a peer. Children of peers are not
considered peers themselves. What the essay does not make clear is just
what it means by 'high office'. If it's Imperial minister a few hundred
peers would be enough. If it is planetary governor, you need thousands. If
it is Fleet Admiral you need tens of thousands.

>    In the feudal sense, a baron is a title for someone who holds a fief
>directly from the king.

In one particular age in one particular area, yes. Later that changed.

>Whether this noble actually has a job he does for the Emperor or whether
>he just sits on his fief and is idle, is a matter of why he got the fief
>in the first place.

But the Imperium cannot be that kind of feudal system, because the Emperor
does not own most of the planets that he appoints nobles to. In most cases
they don't even rule them.

Jon Zeigler also wrote:
>>Canon also states that titles (all the way through duke) can be awarded as
>>rewards for service(s), in a manner not unlike british orders of nighthood.
>
>All the way through duke?  Well, clearly the "high nobility" (i.e. those
>hereditary noble houses who hold what you call "sees" where they
>serve as Imperial representatives to a world or region) are created for
>service to the Imperium beyond any reasonable expectation.  My guess
>is that this doesn't happen very often -- there's only so many such
>positions to go around, so the Emperor would tend to create new
>ones only when an existing high-noble family line fails for some reason.

My preferred solution I've already mentioned: To assume that the reward
titles are actually various Imperial knighthoods that makes the generals
and admirals peers of planetary barons and dukes (Though the highest
admirals might be important enough to rate Imperial noble titles).

>There's also those non-hereditary noble titles, though, tied to high
>administrative rank or to special achievement in various fields.  MT
>canon claims that the latter, at least, never get higher than marquis.
>My take on it is that these non-hereditary posts almost never get
>higher than the baronage.  I mean, think about it: what bureaucrat,
>scientist or ordinary military officer is really going to earn social
>precedence equal to the one direct Imperial representative to a
>high-pop world?

Or get a seat in the Moot. Precisely. As I said, the bottom-up approach
to the system does not mesh with the top-down approach. It needs fixing.

>>  2) The navy and Marines tend to get "Courtesy Titles", especially upon
>>  attaining high ranks in the service; according to the article in Library
>>  Data, whether or not they get a fief is questionable.
>
>I suspect these titles are often of the non-hereditary variety, and would
>normally not be higher than the baronage anyway.

Even that gets them into the Moot...

>I certainly remember generating one or two Navy characters using the CT
>rules that started out as commoners and ended up as counts or dukes. . .
>but I don't know that this is something that would actually happen to the
>run-of-the-mill NPC naval officer.

It's not that i object to the 'a PC is special' argument to explain away
odd results that arise from interpreting the character generation systems
too literally. It's just that for twenty year Traveller authors have been
using those systems to create NPCs...

>>  4) Career nobility carries with it the appropriate courtesy rank when you
>>  leave it, and possibly a feif, to boot.
>
>I really don't understand the Noble career from Supplement 4.  The
>best way I can interpret the career path there is to claim that a
>starting Noble character is a potential *heir* of a noble, and that the
>rank he ends up with depends on whether he inherited the title itself
>or ended up with just a courtesy title of some kind.

That's pretty much the way I interpret it. It is odd even if you interpret
a ducal title as a planetary title, but it does help a little. It's a lot
beter than assuming that he wound up as Duke of Glisten.

>Certainly the career path doesn't give the character a fief at the end. . .

It can give him up to Cr600,000. That could represent a fief worth that
amount. Not much even for a planetary duke, I agree.

>I do seem to recall seeing somewhere a rough sketch of how fief sizes
>correlate with noble rank.  Something like about 100 square km for a
>typical baron, going up by a factor of 10 for each rank so that dukes
>end up with about 100,000 square km.  That strikes me as a very rough
>rule of thumb at best.

Check that LBB we've been talking about. Two fiefs are mentioned: A baron
usually gets a personal fief of no more than 100 square kilometers. An
archduke usually gets an entire world. _IE_ added 1,000 km^2 for marquesses,
10,000 km^2 for counts and 100,000 km^2 for dukes.

>My question still remains, though.  Given all the ways one might get
>handed a baronage -- given all the roles the barons play in Imperial
>society -- how many barons are there likely to be?

How many roles do you think real Imperial barons  --  those who have a
seat in the Moot  --  actually play? I don't really see them getting into
anything much lower than subsector level administration (and their own
world, of course, but even that is sort of subsector-level).

>Meanwhile, it's clear that the baronage is the backbone of Imperial
>administration, so every population needs barons to staff the machinery
>of Imperial government.

I don't think it is so clear. The essay says 'high office'. But how high
is high? Port Captain? Tax Assessor? Postmaster General? How many high
officials does the Imperium need per subsector? Remember that beneath the
barons you have Imperial bannerets (in effect, hereditary knights). Now
_there's_ an Imperial rank that might have millions of members.

>And -- hey, this is a new thought -- where else are you going to put all
>those children of upper-rank nobles who don't inherit the titles themselves?
>You could give them "courtesy ranks," but you could also put them in
>the baronage.  Their title would be real, if not as high as the one their
>older brother or sister inherited.

It still puts them in the Moot. Give them a baronetcy if you want to give
them anything. 

And Peter Trevor wrote:

>An added complication you need to remember is that it is possible to hold
>multiple titles. For example: our old favorite Norris is the Duke of Regina,
>Count of Aledon, and Baron of Yori (IIRC) ... and later Archduke of the
>Domain of Deneb.

Duke of Regina (subsector), Count Aledon (not 'of', it's his family name),
Marquis of Regina (system), and Baron of Yori.

And William F. Hostman writes:

>My rough rule of thumb is that there is one Baron per 10-25 thousand people.
>I typically have a knight or three per thousand...

That's about 600 million barons...

Out of curiosity I made a list of the canonical baronies that I can find. If
anyone can come up with more, please tell me:


Name            Population      Value[1]

Delcambre[2]    Unknown         Unknown
Feri            600 million     Imperial taxes worth MCr21,960. [3]
Klavos[4]       Unknown         Enough to buy a second-hand BROADSWORD class
                                mercenary cruiser and outfit it.
Lewis           24,000          Taxes worth MCr35. [3]
Yori            70 million      Imperial taxes worth MCr2,562. [3]



[1] Using GT figures and assuming that Imperial taxes amount to 1% of GWP.
[2] Barony given to Arabella von Erickson late in the 5FW (ie. a character
    generation type barony) [MTJ3].
[3] Less whatever the baron has to give to his liege lord.
[4] Barony on Adabicci/Lunion belonging to Gamaagin Kaashukiin who sold it
    to raise money to buy a privateer to go hunting Sword Worlders. [JTAS20]
[5] Since Lewis is the personal fief of Leonard of Aramis, taxes are
    assumed to be 25% of GWP.

Hmmm. That didn't help much. You'd almost think it was made up by several
different people who didn't consider the implications much. ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1259
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